Honouring the women that "have carried the baton in so many ways"
The fourth in a series sharing the stories of individual Women of Ireland project interviewees
Growing up in Northern Ireland in the 1980s, educated all the way through by nuns in an all-girls convent school, Sonia had a sense that ‘her options were limited’. That there was more to see, understand and explore in the world. This inner expansiveness, coupled with a desire to learn in ways that were bigger in scope than Ireland could offer, led her to make a ‘very conscious’ decision to leave Ireland at a young age, moving to London to study for her degree.
Reflecting on that decision, Sonia recognises that getting away from the “so-called Troubles” in Northern Ireland was also a big impetus. In London, she could be a different person. Yet, like many whose decision to move abroad has been motivated by a desire to get beyond the restrictiveness of Ireland, she also experienced a complex recognition of her own Irishness. What was previously hidden was clarified – made obvious even— in the context of people outside of Ireland commenting on what she knew intimately.
Yet, in many ways, experiencing external perceptions of Northern Ireland, which so differed from her own lived experience of it left her feeling that there was ‘more to see’ and more to understand about Northern Ireland and her own identity. An openness to there being more than meets the eye —to there being multiple perspectives to any reality— is a central element of her story and is something that has led her to many different places and learnings in life.
Sonia jokes she has a friend who always says of her:
“When you ask Sonia how she is, she says, you rarely talk about you —as in me— but you’ll go, well I’m a bit worried about, you know, like the abortion referendum, or I’m a bit worried about the refugee [crisis] in Syria at the minute, that’s kind of bugging me. She says ‘you... always go big, you never go small. And I think that’s always been kind of how I’ve seen the world is that, it’s much bigger, you know, than our own little patch, there’s more to explore”.
This interest in seeing the world beyond herself (her ‘own little patch’) and her concern for others is partly influenced by her feminism. A brief foray into politics —a largely positive experience driven by a curiosity to see if that space was open for women— led her to the conclusion that Irish politics is not really fit for purpose. Its cumbersome structures leave it lacking in the creativity to be transformative and its underlying rootedness in historical two-party nationalist identities (i.e. anti-Treaty vs. Treaty) is not inclusive to all members of Irish society. Underpinned by her feminism and her openness she now asks ‘who else needs to be included’ and how can she support that?
Yet Ireland, she feels, has arrived at a great juncture, a place where a greater interest in and critical reflection on the past brings opportunities for transformation and positive change. As a woman of Ireland, she both recognises and honours the extraordinary role women of past generations have played. How, despite the immense restrictions placed on them, they still managed to find and create spaces where they could question, challenge and action. Now, in her own work, she is asking how she can continue to ‘carry the baton’ and honour ‘the furrow’ they left for planting.
“I grew up in Northern Ireland, I grew up in Fermanagh. So.... if we have identifiers, it's words like "border", it’s words like "generational"... I sort of felt at that period, there were certainly moments where I could see that as a woman, as a female, that my options were limited. So, I went to school in the 80s, graduated and immediately went to England, I went to university in London”.
[So, that sense that my options were quite limited] “I think it really, it comes from, I suppose, well, I was educated all the way through —and this is...probably now quite rare— I was educated all the way through by nuns”.
“So....when we talk about role models.... [they] didn't resonate in any sense....and, you know, when I think about the nuns...I have to say, I never saw them as female. Now, that has just occurred to me. And it’s.... because... I suppose that sense that they weren't experiencing life the same way I was, as a teenager in the 80s, you know, discos and learning to drive. And.... we were probably that first generation who were, you know, getting to go on holidays...like away-away, you know. And so that [traditional world where they were the female role models] certainly, I could see was, was limited”.
[And, then] “in terms of like a career or the next stage of my education, I didn't want to be a teacher, I didn't want to be a nurse, I didn't want to work in the bank. And yet, academically, I wasn't going to be a doctor, or a pharmacist or a dentist, so what, you know, what were the options?”
[That was] “how we were funnelled through education as a Catholic female. You know, there was almost an assumption that you would be the nurse, the teacher, and so on....and it was an all-girls school, a convent school. And although, we had options. And I was always really grateful for having the option of doing all sciences. We weren't being pushed, you know, oh you need a humanities or why not do a language or whatever, as well you know? So I could do the hardcore kind of three science for my A-levels. And...as I came to choosing my degree, in discussions with the career [advisor], who happened to be a lay teacher, and.... she was quite an evolved female, I have to say, as well....she was probably used to having the conversation about, well what nursing degree are you going to? Or what teaching degree or university are you thinking about? Whereas I come in and went I don't want to do any of that. And I remember her going off and going, Oh, well, we're going to have to look at different things then, we're going to have to look at alternatives...at where you might find some of your interests available. And.... at the time, they weren't in Northern Ireland, or Ireland more generally”.
[So, the decision to leave Ireland and go and study in London came from that sense that my options in Ireland were limited. But it was an unusual decision because] “the vast majority of my friends from school at that time were all staying put, they were all either staying in Northern Ireland or just going south of the border to Dublin or Galway. And I felt slightly rebellious....you know.....[the decision I had made].... felt like it was a different path than the usual. And I think I was just, I just had a growing sense that the degree I wanted to do was bigger in scope. You know that it gave me more options than there were [in Ireland].
[And so moving to study in London] “That was a very conscious decision on my part”.
[Because I also] “had a real sense that I wanted to leave that....sense of what Ireland was...for one, it was a really tough time, in terms of the so-called troubles. And...I use that "so-called" word because I was never, I never had this sense that it had a purpose, that it fulfilled anything of value. I abhorred violence, I totally, you know, I couldn't understand the politics of it. I couldn't understand how people would choose to go that route. And...I suppose 18, 19, It just felt easier to go”.
[So] “the option of getting away for one [seemed very appealing, and I have] a very strong memory too, of sitting in London in my first few weeks at university... [and] that was that month that the Enniskillen bomb went off, the Poppy Day bomb. And watching that on the news was just incredible....but yeah, that sense of relief of; I'm not there anymore. And my mum and dad were fine.... it was one of those things I knew that, because of where it had gone off, or how it was, you know, on the day that it was that it would be predominantly Protestants. That's an awful thing to say.... when I say it as bluntly as that, but it's literally the relevance of it, it didn't have relevance to my family and upbringing. So, culturally, we would have had no connections with the army or British Army or even the Irish army. So that one, that sense of gosh, my timing's kind of good. I've left it, you know, I can see other things, I can be another person....So that sense of that decision being a good one was very clear in that”.
“And so London provided I suppose somewhat of an escape. But.... [living within a different country, and a different culture, it also] gave me a way of seeing; a sense then that my... I'm going to use the word identity.... but my identity kind of did....became more clear, it clarified that I still was Irish”
“So there would be times in discussions with Irish people over there, or English people, say, you know, cohorts of my studies, where I could feel a defensiveness or I could feel a kind of like, hmm, I think I know more about that than you do, so I'd rather you didn't comment on, you know, things that were happening, and so on”.
“I recall an incident on a bus in London. And it was interesting, my sister.... was with me at the time. And....there were two young men in front of us. And they were students.... And we heard one turn to the other and say, Well, have you decided then...to remain as part of the army as your studies go on? Are you going to keep going? And he says, “Yes, because actually, the next part of my training will be in Northern Ireland”. And myself and [my sister] kind of turned to each other and we both almost had the sense of leaning in to hear a little bit more. And he said, “Because it's the best training ground in the world, for what we do”. And...when we got off the bus, we both went, Wow, they're talking about the place we grew up in, you know, that we still have strong connections to, mum and dad is still there, my brother was still there, aunts, uncles, grandparents. And yet, I just, it just sort [presented a] perception of Northern Ireland in a completely different way. But that, that resonated with me for a very long time. And it felt like I had something very unanswered in my understanding of the North”.
“And so that that experience....of leaving and maybe then viewing the situation, certainly with fresh eyes, and then, certainly with fresh ears in terms of the perception of what we, what we knew at home. I knew that there was more to see. There was more to capture in that [view of Northern Ireland and that perception of it that was so different to my reality having grown up there, there was more in that for me to make sense of]”.
“You know, as a youngster, you think your life is the same as everybody else's, you know...you relate to your school pals, and your neighbours and.... your parents and your grandparents, and they were just all part of your own life....but we didn't catch glimpses of the violence, we didn't catch glimpses of, you know, maybe [having] a dad been interned or ending up in prison”.
“So... just for [the sheer luck of] where we grew up, and how we grew up.... we didn't see that side [of Northern Ireland that everybody else perceives]. And yet, that frustration of seeing it presented [that way] on the news, or in the language of that young man [on the bus] was [there]. But you know [you come to realise, that] there are...so many layers to a society and a community. And, you know, [that young man on the bus] was going to [have] an incredibly different experience. He had a job to do and a role to do there in our home, in our place where we grew up. And just that sense that he wasn't going to see that aspect; he wasn't going to see the aspect to our lives of just being a really normal family, you know, growing up and living teenage lives [really struck me when I heard him speaking on the bus that day].
“Our family was quite, quite a neutral family. You know, politics weren't heavily discussed, they weren't heavily nationalist”.
[And] “we would spend summers in Donegal....in a caravan. And... I now acknowledge that actually my mum and dad probably made a real conscious decision to kind of keep us out of the North in the summer. To get us, you know, into neutral space. And it was just so amazing to have six or eight weeks just running riot.as youngsters on the beach”.
“And I'm always thankful for my parents that....we kind of had to make up our own minds about things, including our faith, actually, I have to say. They're both well and [are] still practising Catholics, but I never, we never felt, you know, under undue pressure to kind of do that, you know. When we're there [visiting them though] we [do] go with them [to mass]...that's kind of a; that's the deal, you know”.
“So, I'm really grateful and I'm full of admiration for my parents having done the job that they've done with us, in terms of giving us, I suppose, space and time....to figure out lives for ourselves and those aspects. And again, they never once put us under any pressure to stay close to home. And uniquely...all my siblings and myself, we don't have children. Never became a mother. And again, I think....all kinds of gratitude to my parents for never having that expectation on us, you know, that we were very free to, to choose....if that was relevant to us or not”.
“I do remember —myself and [my partner] aren't married, we never did the ceremony, but we're together 25 years now— but I do remember a fairly challenging discussion with my mum about getting married, probably about two years into my relationship with [my partner]. And she said, she just laid it on the line that she had expected me to get married, and I says expected me to get married where? And she said in the church? I says Well, that's where we're gonna have to differ. Because that's not relevant. It doesn't feel like that's the space that is about my relationship with [my partner]. It's not based on, you know....it being condoned or being acknowledged by a faith or religion....And... I think she probably was slightly, she was wounded by that, you know, that I was maybe discounting her.... understanding of what marriage was about. But I think over time they've seen, and then we've never had that discussion again. But, you know, she welcomes [my partner] into the house when we stay together, and we're allowed to sleep in the same bedroom. You know, these things...that only Irish daughters probably will fully understand”.
[But when I think of my parent's relationship the] “the word that comes to mind is balance....in that my mum is 10 years older than my dad....and that's quite a big difference in terms of being a mother and being a father. So... we got a sense that mum could do the mothering. Mum could kind of be the fairly typical Mum, the fairly traditional Mum, you know, the cooker, the cleaner, the kind of like, getting us out of bed to go to Mass on a Sunday, she did all of that. But my dad, he got the space of being somewhat the fun one. Somewhat the indulgence of bringing us to the swimming pool...[and that kind of thing] so that’s the role he had”.
“So, it was a really nice balance. So, maybe if they had both [been] the same age, then maybe their slight outlook would have been a bit more [traditional] and I see it in some of my female you know, cohorts from school....[were] that traditional upbringing....kind of can dampen, kind of can contain.....particularly the girls, you know. Whereas.... looking back.... [my dad] actually, he treated the two girls as, as equally as a son. And I can't help but feel he was just that generation; he had moved to London for a little while and didn't like it and had come back to Ireland. And then that's when he met Mum. And just, I think his perspective on life is, is quite open. And [while] he grew up in the 50s and 60s, my mum grew up in the 40s and the 50s. And those are very different decades, very different. But yet, I think they fell in love with each other....they're still, the two of them are still kind of quirky, you know, in their kind of views of life and....my mum has mellowed incredibly over [the years], and I suppose having kids who....didn't do the usual, you know, they've probably had to adjust to different conversations [too] you know”.
“And so I think that has probably had some bearing on [how they raised us as they did]; that decade of difference. And yet... my mum I think she was supported not to be just the Mum, you know, she was also supported [in that] she worked outside the home when we were in secondary school. And I think that yeah....again, that's just luck. It's a little bit of luck [in terms of when, where and to whom you are born]”.
“Now reflecting back, you kind of look for little pointers or little indicators that, you know...[perhaps contributed] maybe....[to] thoughts around, [why] I don't want to stay in the North, I don't want to do the usual. And I remember....at dinners, my dad said things like, I hope you all travel, you know, I hope you go see the world. And if... tomorrow morning.. you're saying you're moving to Australia; he says we'll tell you great... And so I can recall those kinds of ‘what if’ conversations.... over dinner and on the Sunday drives we were all forced to go on. And yeah so...I suppose unknowingly.... those little kind of pointers or those sort of like, indicators that all would be well if we made those choices....that I wouldn't have that challenge of why or why not? Or, what's wrong [with staying here]? You know, those [sorts of questions], which I think some of my cohort would have experienced [from their families].
“Now sitting, as I do at 52, I'm coming into my 53rd year.... at the end of September [2021].... your [Women of Ireland Project] research certainly feels relevant, it feels like the timing is quite interesting for me, you know, as a woman reflecting on her own kind of, I suppose life course”.
“I'm really enjoying being 50-something. I really enjoyed my 40s; [I] very much [got] a sense of bringing together [my] learning and understanding and experiences and skills in my 40s, [of having a] sense of maybe growing confidence in what I had to offer”.
“And now in my 50s, [when it comes to deciding anything I might do, I have more a sense of] well, [whatever it is, it] has to work for me more than, you know.... just turning up to do [something]...or agreeing to....take part in [something just because you’ve been asked]. There's a growing sense ....[of having a] clarity around, you know who I want to be in [anything I do]”
[I have] “that sense of ‘I have nothing to lose’, you know... I've lived an incredibly rich life to date [and] It's not over yet, and in fact.... my expectation is [it’s] to get richer and.... I'd really love other women to know.... that this period in their lives, they have for one, not only huge life experience and skills and understanding to offer but they personally, you know, this is possibly their moment. And....the freedom.... that’s certainly a word I'm hearing.... freedom to get on with the things that they care about, and to be involved with, and not [be] curtailed maybe any longer by, you know, their responsibilities to their families, their partners, their employers... it’s like a, yeah... it's a slightly more devil-may-care attitude, which is just terrific to see. And too.... that growing sense of No, no, thanks. I don't want to do that. I'd rather much rather do that, [that they can say no to things now and choose to do things that matter to them]”.
[So, a few years ago, I got involved in politics] “and I ran for election [in my constituency] .... and I ran knowing I wasn't going to be elected”.
[But] “I did that out of a curiosity for one, you know....was the space really available to women? Was there....an option for politics?”.
“I suppose...I was intrigued to see what that space....would look like and how it would feel. Now I had a really positive experience in that. And I kind of knew why I was doing [it]....why I chose to run.... So, there was a bit of an experiment for me [in it]. So, you know....it wasn't like a hefty project or a huge financial commitment. I think I spent 200 euros on my campaign...I think I probably was the cheapest candidate out there. I actually got a round of applause at a women's conference for saying, yeah, my...campaign cost me 200 euros, and there you go, you don't need money to run in politics. But you do have to have guts. that was clear”.
“But my experience....was really positive in terms of my, like other candidates, and the respect.... I had a strong sense of solidarity, for want of a better word, even though, you know, our policies probably, our outlook were quite different. That sense of....putting yourself forward....to make a difference, that's a very strong theme in folks that run as candidates. And again, I think it gets lost in translation, you know, maybe once they get into, into politics, or once they get elected, or once they rise, you know, through the party structure, some of that gets lost”.
“But what I did find was with the female candidates, that sense of service was very strong, that sense of offering themselves for something beyond, you know, just the usual job was very strong. And I enjoyed that, I enjoyed the richness of...those discussions we had... and no one, no candidate will deny that they're trying to make a difference to other people's lives, you know, they'll say that very honestly, that that's why they're doing it”.
[But] “I suppose the conclusion I've come to about that and reflecting now further on kind of where Ireland isn’t in terms of its equality, and social justice, in particular, is that our political system and our system of creating policy is outdated. It's less relevant now to contemporary Ireland. And, I feel that really quite strongly now. And so, I'm less drawn to discussions now about the present kind of political system... [It just doesn’t]...feel like a relevant conversation any longer. The conversation for me is about transformation, and it's about change. And our system right now is too historical. It's too indebted to the past. So that sense that this space is not, it's certainly not open, and it's certainly not; it’s lacking a lot of creativity and responsiveness”.
“And...for me....where we continue to go wrong with politics is, we keep it as a separate entity, as a unique kind of position in society. Whereas, fundamentally....it's the same as any person doing a job around development work...or a caring profession, or those running a business. It's the same...And [then, in Ireland, when] you layer...what we have at the minute.... with the history of patriarchal, you know, nationalist republican discussion —Civil War, Anti Civil War— you know, when you start layering all that, there was never room for women then. So why should there be room for women now?”.
“It’s these little indicators you get, like the young woman who's a minister. [who was] about to have her first baby, and [was] taking time off. And they had never had to think about maternity leave for a TD before. And I'm like, I don't? It's incomprehensible like, you know, 50% of the population are going to automatically be excluded from our political system because that aspect of their life isn't even considered”.
[But] “you know, we had gender quotas in Ireland, and I think they were really great at opening that space and challenging it. And I think there's still room for that to happen. But I'm also kind of now, coming to the conclusion that I don't really want to be pushing women into that system any longer, because it's not fit for purpose. And it's certainly not going to be a space that they can flourish in”.
[So] “Why would I throw good women into that whole kind of structure?....I think there's time for an alternative, I think there's time for strengthening the work around influences and advocacy and actually, even just, you know, I'm involved in the community sector, letting us... get on with the job. And not being burdened with, what's the politics of it, you know, whose pet project are we responding to right now? And so, that's been kind of a relief to come a little bit full circle on that. To know, right now that that's not my job.... [that my job is not to] kind of promote that. [Instead] it's to promote what's happening around it. And it's to support what's going on, at the margins, or on the periphery, or in the more kind of creative spaces. Because that's what really responds to need and to challenge”.
[And I just] “love.... [as] I've alluded to, you know, in how I describe myself a little bit now, around that sense of [now at this stage of my life] I have nothing to lose. And I love when people come into a conversation with nothing on their minds, or nothing of an agenda, but just to maybe connect or be part of [something]....to know that it's a space where, you know, they can kind of be who they want to be, and kind of offer what comes up for them to offer”.
[So, for me now, thinking about what I have to offer and what I’m interested in, and what matters to me] “I'm totally appreciative of the privilege that I have as a white person in Ireland, as someone who has a companion in her life, who has good health, who has a lifestyle I think that works, you know, for us. Who's....financially reasonably secure. And so [with] that... [and in] reaching that point [in my life]... I have a sense of drawing back curtains and going ‘Okay, what else needs [to be] done? You know, who else, who else here needs [support?]....Who wants to be involved in something new, you know?”.
“I think there's something in the timing now, for Ireland. There is a growing sense that...that formation [of the State].... and maybe we're all reflecting on the 100 years...and the commemoration of partition [offers] an opportunity to renegotiate, I suppose, for me around; who's included, who now is included [in Ireland and within Irish identity that was previously not included when the State was formed]? And I see...I'm more comfortable now, also as a feminist, that....I can see a space for me within that [nationality] now. But I think for me, there's a challenge left for feminism. And I think that's where I'm, I'm sitting right now with my own kind of research, is that feminism as well has taken on somewhat of the culture and the history [of Ireland; of its politics and its nationalism]. And I think it's time to maybe reflect back and see who we're leaving out, see who remains to be included? And funnily enough, I've, I've kind of discovered that age isn't a priority; growing older in Ireland is not a priority for feminism. And it's kind of irking me, it's kind of bothering me”.
“Because I have a sense, my age group and older, have probably seen the most significant change[s] [in Ireland], you know, that sense of the incredible.… change from independence, to now, you know, a present-day globalised society and nation. And...I think it's only recently [that]... history is only now catching up with the role, the value, the outlook of women, you know....right through from those significant changes around independence, the politics of inclusion, feminism, all of those things, you know, women took the lead. And I've just had a growing sense that.... I’ve wanted to really honour the older women in particular, in our society, as having carried the baton in so many ways”.
[I want to honour] “who's gone before, and actually, who committed, you know, to keep the space available for women. So...that's kind of where I'm finding real nourishment and vitality, for me personally, and I think, hopefully, with discussions women my age and older”.
“And more lately [I’ve been really drawn to how] .... women have.... continued to play a role in how Ireland has been shaped and formed....I see that there's a growing challenge to what we've seen as —and I think the pandemic and COVID have really highlighted what we have seen as normal— and I think we've begun to question what we mean by normal. And we've begun to question.... how Ireland has come, come up through independence, has formed an identity and a culture that.... has tried to move us away from being a colony, you know, an English colony to an independent state. And....you know, I've used the word... with colleagues around....this sense that women were shafted at that point. And again, I'd say you'll, you'll have caught sight of that.... you know, women were promised so much when the declaration and the proclamation were shouted from the steps of the GPO [in 1916] and they....promised to be involved in that whole struggle on the back of.... being included and being equal”.
[And so ] “the baton [that the women before us have carried and which I want to honour now] is kind of a unique one.... and I'm really always aware of the exceptionalism that we can sometimes, that I can drop in to in terms of describing Irish women. But there's some lovely work starting to come out around how women continued despite everything....you know, the church, the state, and now more lately....our commitment to this economics of neoliberalism and capitalism and market. How women find spaces in that. And I think [that is summed up really well by ] it might be Pat O'Connor —a feminist historian— who has said that women never came down from the platform, you know, they created another platform. And when....you kind of look at how [the women who went before us, how] they manipulated or negotiated that [restrictive] space [that Ireland was] because they were kept very much from a public space and told to remain in the private sphere. [And that is how associations like The Irish Countrywomen’s Association] evolved.... and they were real rebels, they really were! [But they kept the space open for us, they found the spaces despite all that was going against them]”.
[Like I’ve seen] “some lovely work around descriptions of the priest coming into the house, and the women of the house really challenging him, you know, and calling into question, who is he to say about this or say about that, you know. And that was done in the private sphere. But yet, it influences me now, sitting here knowing that, you know, it's okay for me not to be Catholic and not to have a faith in Ireland now, because they kind of created that space to challenge it. So, the baton [carrying the
baton] is to continue to find those little cracks or those little opportunities to continue influencing, you know, how we transform, how we become equal, how we negotiate what life looks like now in the 21st century? And I'm really intrigued as to what shape it takes”.
[So] “I'm really curious about.... this age group, who came up through incredibly challenging times, as females in Ireland.... you know, the 30s 40s and 50s. Some would have left, had to leave in fact; they.... wouldn't have been in line for, you know, inheriting property, land, anything at all. And, actually, the numbers are quite significant in terms of that cohort, having left [and emigrated]”
[And so, it’s not that I have] one big grand project.... in mind but, in my own way, I feel like I want to maybe create the space that they couldn't feel part of [In the Ireland they knew], or maybe....didn't feel had the capacity or confidence to create. So, to be, you know, maybe single, maybe to not be mothers, maybe not to have a faith or a religion, maybe instead to focus on their career or....work within the community or...to give something back.... So, there's something just about just maybe offering even if it's only, I don't know, 20 or 30 women, you know, as I go forward, the opportunity to go, actually Ireland now is what we needed then. And...and I kind of want them to see that potential or, or to know, that actually they can, they can be activists still in, in creating that change”.
[And so, a question I’ve been carrying for a while has been] “What is Ireland offering women right now? What is there to see? What has to happen? What more...has things like feminism as a, not only as an...outlook but also as a practice, you know, what's still on offer here?”.
[And along with that] “I've had that question you've had Belinda.... what does it mean to be an Irish woman, now, you know....looking into the 21st century?”.
“So, I kind of see myself as being a fairly average woman. Now, I know I'm privileged in that....I'm reasonably well educated and I've had the opportunity to travel and I've got a lifestyle you know, I've made choices about how I wanted to live my life”.
“But...what I'm feeling with Ireland at the moment is that, well first....Ireland's really talented at generating amazing policies. I don't know if you've ever heard this one, how Ireland is described as we like....we generate policies like there's no [tomorrow].... like [if] you Google Ireland... [and] ask, you know, does it have a policy on [something or other], it will have a policy on it. It won't have an implementation plan for that policy [though]. And that's...the weak link...That's the problem”.
“But if we coalesce....if I bring together what I see...going into the 21st century, what do I see as what our challenges will be —or what I see as our opportunities— is that we are an island nation. We have a richness of landscape, culture, and history I think that is incredibly nourishing, it's challenging, but it's incredibly nourishing. And I think there's room now for women, in particular, I think, to say, look, we have come so far. And we really want to push through, we want to finish the job. So, we've been promised, you know, gender equality, we've been promised equality in terms of our pensions. And we've...you know, we've reached somewhat of a...positive in terms of our body autonomy...our reproductive rights”.
“But those are...in some ways, those are the obvious, easy ones....[well] that's not the word, they were the obvious ones, they weren't easy. So, what we're facing next is those challenges around identity, those challenges around, for me, age, for others, it'll be choice around being a mother or having a career. And I feel that women can show how you can have those, equally”.
[And in Ireland] “We've an older [generation of] really educated females... like our two presidents, our ex-presidents are incredible thinkers. Mary McAleese and Mary Robinson; we do women really well in this country. We really do”
“So with that, what we're facing into...I think...the furrow, the furrow is ready for the planting really effectively...with what has gone on before. And so....I see a confidence, I think, in women coming up. I think....we do generations really well in Ireland, too. We don't demarcate so much as in other countries. I see it in discussions around ageing, where it's problematised in so many other countries, whereas here, it's like, no, don't touch my granny. No, no, no, no, she has a right. You know. She has a right. And so there's certainly that opportunity... And I think knowing what women in Ireland have come through; the containment; their exclusion. You know, it's like we have the genes, I think, we have the backing of everybody that's gone before...I have a sense of that”.
“I keep kind of just resorting to kind of ‘watch this space’, because I... just have a really great feeling that there's....this coming together, and this opening up and I think you can... [like] I have a sense that you can walk in as a female into a lot more spaces now. And feel you have got something to offer; something to say. In fact, why not create it so that you know, you can do that to be sure that people are included? So, yeah....I have a really great sense that, for want of a better word, we have, we have a revolution coming but it's a transformation. it's a disruption. You know, it's not a,...it's not divisive....it's a richness, I think”.
[But] “yeah, Ireland, Ireland's in a, it has a great moment....to reflect back and ask, ask better questions and ask more relevant questions now. And...I have a sense as well that I can, I can find a border as well within all of this, I can find women on both sides of that, who will find commonality, who will find similar views, similar aspirations, similar hopes, and that's what I'm really intrigued to find because, you know....I think we've been divided by something made up.....the border actually is, it's a made-up construct, socially constructed...to make life easier for decision-makers and politicians way back 100 years ago. It... was the simplest solution to an intractable problem...And yet, I can't help but feel...if there had been a richness in the discussion [back then], including women, I think we could have come up with something more creative, more imaginative, more relevant, and not as long-lasting. That there would already have been opportunities to transition, be it either way”.
“And....this is an interesting point, too, is people say well, you know, are we at the point where we can look at a united Ireland? And for me....that's not really the discussion that's relevant right now. It's like, where are we right now? Who still needs to be included and involved? Who....is still going through some of the struggles and... the sense of disconnection, you know, that so many experienced then, and are continuing to experience now?”
“There’s so many lessons I think that we are missing in this as well, that....when you create something that's not actually real [like the border between North and South], then people make sense of that in a whole variety of ways. They try to experience it, or they try to make...it into a form that they understand. And I think there's something around imagining, you know, what it would look like [if it was different].....and I think this is possibly....when you start opening up things you will bang, you will bump up against things that you haven't fully seen yet. So, there's something remaining for me....around fully acknowledging our history.... because I think there's more [of us now] who have kind of realised that there was a lot more to see, there was a lot more to understand [in Ireland’s past and how this country was formed]. And that how we're formed is not just simply....family, it's much broader it's much bigger, and now....you know, in our globalized world, you know, there's a richness of humanity, I think that we could get to, that will be much more nourishing”.
[And I’ve moved around a lot, not just outside Ireland, but also in Ireland, living North and South of the border, and what I noticed, when I lived down in Munster is] “how little people knew, that far south about what the North was like. And it's almost like, the further south you go, the less they know. It's just, it doesn't feel relevant...... So, it's just little things like that you catch and you go, God yeah, it is, right enough it is different, you know, it's different, but it's the same. And that's, I suppose, that's the quirkiness of it... [But the] common bridge for me around that is women; they find much more in common, certainly, and that's what I've experienced”.
[A few years ago] “I had the pleasure of working on a [cross border] peace project [working with women from both sides of the border].... and I suppose what we found is when you stripped away the geographical, you found a lot of really common stories and common themes. About things like bringing up family safely, you know, about holding the space for a normal life, about protecting who they saw as vulnerable, be it their children, or be it you know, older people in their lives. So, that was a really common theme, is that women have the capacity to normalise things in extraordinary circumstances”.
[Like, one woman] “shared a story....about an older woman [she had spoken with who] had come [to her and said] I can't...I can't do it anymore. I cannot wash my grandchildren's clothes in that washing machine. I can't do it. And as it, as it evolved, what would happen was that the local men who had been up to their deeds, whatever it was, would come into her kitchen, they would strip off, they would put their clothes in the washing machine, then she would be tasked with drying them, ironing them. And they would leave. And she said, I cannot do that. I cannot wash my grandchildren's clothes in that washing machine any longer. I just can't do it. And it really kind of reflected that sense of, as I say, normalising, just getting on with things, doing the clothes. And yet, this assumption that, you know, just because she was a woman, just because she had a washing machine, just because she was the same faith as them or maybe held the same views that it was okay to do that, with no consequences. But over time, the consequences really started to show for her”.
[And so that] “opened up kind of a series of other kind of pieces. And one of our women shared. And she was actually quite a young woman... and she grew up [in one of the border counties of the Republic], very, very close to the border. And she said she remembers some nights looking out through her window into the pitch into the darkness —she grew up in a rural area on a farm— and there being lights in one of the outhouses, one of the sheds at the bottom of the yard, you know, people coming and going. And she said she just knew that she, she had to accept that, that she couldn't challenge it, that she couldn't lock the door, that she couldn't go check the shed the next morning, she just had to accept that that's what her place was, you know, is to enable that, to let it be, not to report it, not to talk about it, not to share it. But she said again, it just felt like a real, like so much to ask, you know, bringing her family up, trying to live a normal life and yet knowing.... that there were things that she...had no control over... So.....that was a real shared, like I said, there was that common theme of getting on with life. And the common theme of being able to normalise something. That was so clear with the women on both sides”.
“And I can't help but feel women are holding those stories” [but often feel like they can’t share them, or that their stories are not important enough to share].
[So] “Then I suppose the, the other bit, that pops for me in all of this and defining myself...is the identity piece....and I think there's more for me to see around how, how we use that word, identity, even gender. And I think this is an angle, I'm kind of excited to work with, with older women now, in feminism, because I think the landscape has changed so much again, for how we define ourselves in terms of our gender, our sexuality. You know, that richness of conversation, and that's a generational thing which I think will be really interesting to, to acknowledge and to share. And again, I can't help but find, I can't help but feel that we'll find a lot more common, in how people experience life and how people experience being female, being older, being white, being homosexual, being transgender, you know, there's so many pieces that we, you know, we have to hear yet”.