Great post, thanks for sharing your musings on this subject. I also see the strength in Irish women and would be lying if saying that I didn't notice the tendency you described of Irish men. Do you think this could be an effect of the cause? That is, are men weaker than women on these fronts because of the place women have taken, either through necessity or choice; dominating, out-spoken, "ruling" ... could this type of female behaviour, create a weak male? Or does the weak male create this type of woman? I guess I'm basically on a chicken and egg type pondering with this and wondered how you might see things here, if you can follow my gist?
Yes, it is all real 'Chicken and Egg Stuff', and I would feel you are on to something there. Both the women I have interviewed and several anthropological studies would testify to there being very different child-rearing practices (traditionally) in Ireland for males and females, with females generally encouraged from a young age to become quite self-sufficient and take on tasks about the house etc. while the males tend to be, for want of a better word, 'molly-coddled' or, if they're not the 'favourite' dismissed and ridiculed as being 'not good for much' which tends to become a self-fulfilling prophecy if that is essentially the role they are given from birth. So, I do think there is a perpetual cycle we are stuck in here whereby women 'Mammy the Men' which is, in and of itself, an act of dismissal. It really is a viscious cycle!
Loved this piece, Belinda especially the framing of 'The Men' vs 'The Mammies'. It's something I've been noodling through in my own mind for so many years and I appreciate the intellectual structure you've put around it.
Thanks Clare! Glad to know I'm not the only one whose mind "noodles" with such things. Not sure I'll ever figure it out but it's fun to throw a few ideas about
A very interesting post Belinda. Initially reading this I wondered if JM Synge’s ‘Playboy of the Western World’ has something to offer - in its portrayal of both male and female characters and also that it has no mother figure.
On another point, one of the key ways control of women was enacted in Ireland was in control of sexuality, the banning of contraception etc and the stranglehold caused by the meshing of church and state in enacting policy to control the private sphere.
Thanks Margaret. You're not the first person to have mentioned Playboy of the Western World to me in as many weeks -- so there's clearly a sign in that for me!
Really good point re: contraception. I have been slowly working my way through a book called 'Contraception and Modern Ireland" by Laura Kelly over the last few months, and it really is quite mind-blowing the lengths the Church / State went to, as you say, keep a stranglehold on women!
Belinda, two other books that you might find insightful if you don't already know of them - June Levine's 'Sisters' (I haven't read it in many decades, but I see a new issue is available in Kenny's) and, more recently, Derek Scally's 'The Best Catholics in the World'.
Thanks Margaret. I have Derek Scally's book sitting on my coffee table! Yet to be read though. Haven't heard of June Levine's sisters though, so I look forward to getting a copy of that!
Interesting that you have Scally’s book Belinda - it’s a very good read. June Levine’s was first published in the 80s and in my memory it was a refreshing voice reporting from the frontline.
Great piece Belinda. I really enjoyed the historical evidence you were able to bring to the discussion and how you continue to search for the answers. I find it curious how a single behaviour can simultaneously support both a patriarchal and matriarchal framing. Take, for example, the phenomenon of a woman being in charge of a couple’s social engagements. A man might say, when asked to take part in a family engagement, ‘you will have to ask my social secretary’. That statement represents the decision-making process as a mark of his patriarchal power, something he has outsourced to the woman. He is saying that he has an underling doing that for him in the private arena. Sometimes, however this same private arena decision-making process might be represented by a more matriarchal statement such as ‘It feels like I have two babies organise, him and the child,’ marking the male adult’s infantilisation,
by the female narrative, with respect to the private arena. The whole field is a complex dance where male passivity can be reframed in such paradoxical ways, as both power and incompetence.
Thanks John -- love the examples you give here of how, what is objectively the same function/behaviour can have two very different power dynamics at play depending on how it is framed. I think that is what makes this whole area both fascinating and befuddling, all at the same time! It really is a 'complex dance'
I will have to look up the Tudor/ early Stuart paper, sounds interesting! There was definitely a tradition of strong matriarchs in Conor's family. They come from Arklow. I'm not sure if it was because all the menfolk seemed to die young, (probably from hard physical labour or smoking/ drinking?) so they had to step up, or just that they were strong women in their own right. I wouldnt describe my own mother as a matriarch, but she had to raise a family single-handedly, just like many women had to, and still have to today. There must be a strength in that.
Definitely do look up the Tudor/Early Stuart paper, it is fascinating!
Interestingly enough, Arklow is my 'home-town'!!! Well, I grew up 'in the country' but Arklow was our local town, and yes, definitely a lot of strong matriarchs about the place. Might be because of the fishing industry (women running businesses on land while men at sea) and it did have a lot of industry (like ammunitions and pottery) were women were employed and earned a decent wage. Your mother sounds like a real power-house and I'm sure a source of strength to you when you think of her xx
Great post, thanks for sharing your musings on this subject. I also see the strength in Irish women and would be lying if saying that I didn't notice the tendency you described of Irish men. Do you think this could be an effect of the cause? That is, are men weaker than women on these fronts because of the place women have taken, either through necessity or choice; dominating, out-spoken, "ruling" ... could this type of female behaviour, create a weak male? Or does the weak male create this type of woman? I guess I'm basically on a chicken and egg type pondering with this and wondered how you might see things here, if you can follow my gist?
Yes, it is all real 'Chicken and Egg Stuff', and I would feel you are on to something there. Both the women I have interviewed and several anthropological studies would testify to there being very different child-rearing practices (traditionally) in Ireland for males and females, with females generally encouraged from a young age to become quite self-sufficient and take on tasks about the house etc. while the males tend to be, for want of a better word, 'molly-coddled' or, if they're not the 'favourite' dismissed and ridiculed as being 'not good for much' which tends to become a self-fulfilling prophecy if that is essentially the role they are given from birth. So, I do think there is a perpetual cycle we are stuck in here whereby women 'Mammy the Men' which is, in and of itself, an act of dismissal. It really is a viscious cycle!
Thanks for your thorough reply, much appreciated to hear your perspective. As always appreciate your writing, thank you again for all that you share.
I loved this Belinda. So interesting to read how you're exploring the roots of this perception we all have, down various avenues.
Thanks so much Liadán xx
Love the newsletter Belinda, it's fascinating. xx
Loved this piece, Belinda especially the framing of 'The Men' vs 'The Mammies'. It's something I've been noodling through in my own mind for so many years and I appreciate the intellectual structure you've put around it.
Thanks Clare! Glad to know I'm not the only one whose mind "noodles" with such things. Not sure I'll ever figure it out but it's fun to throw a few ideas about
A very interesting post Belinda. Initially reading this I wondered if JM Synge’s ‘Playboy of the Western World’ has something to offer - in its portrayal of both male and female characters and also that it has no mother figure.
On another point, one of the key ways control of women was enacted in Ireland was in control of sexuality, the banning of contraception etc and the stranglehold caused by the meshing of church and state in enacting policy to control the private sphere.
Thanks Margaret. You're not the first person to have mentioned Playboy of the Western World to me in as many weeks -- so there's clearly a sign in that for me!
Really good point re: contraception. I have been slowly working my way through a book called 'Contraception and Modern Ireland" by Laura Kelly over the last few months, and it really is quite mind-blowing the lengths the Church / State went to, as you say, keep a stranglehold on women!
Belinda, two other books that you might find insightful if you don't already know of them - June Levine's 'Sisters' (I haven't read it in many decades, but I see a new issue is available in Kenny's) and, more recently, Derek Scally's 'The Best Catholics in the World'.
https://www.kennys.ie/biography/sisters-the-personal-story-of-an-irish-feminist
Thanks Margaret. I have Derek Scally's book sitting on my coffee table! Yet to be read though. Haven't heard of June Levine's sisters though, so I look forward to getting a copy of that!
Interesting that you have Scally’s book Belinda - it’s a very good read. June Levine’s was first published in the 80s and in my memory it was a refreshing voice reporting from the frontline.
Great piece Belinda. I really enjoyed the historical evidence you were able to bring to the discussion and how you continue to search for the answers. I find it curious how a single behaviour can simultaneously support both a patriarchal and matriarchal framing. Take, for example, the phenomenon of a woman being in charge of a couple’s social engagements. A man might say, when asked to take part in a family engagement, ‘you will have to ask my social secretary’. That statement represents the decision-making process as a mark of his patriarchal power, something he has outsourced to the woman. He is saying that he has an underling doing that for him in the private arena. Sometimes, however this same private arena decision-making process might be represented by a more matriarchal statement such as ‘It feels like I have two babies organise, him and the child,’ marking the male adult’s infantilisation,
by the female narrative, with respect to the private arena. The whole field is a complex dance where male passivity can be reframed in such paradoxical ways, as both power and incompetence.
Thanks John -- love the examples you give here of how, what is objectively the same function/behaviour can have two very different power dynamics at play depending on how it is framed. I think that is what makes this whole area both fascinating and befuddling, all at the same time! It really is a 'complex dance'
I will have to look up the Tudor/ early Stuart paper, sounds interesting! There was definitely a tradition of strong matriarchs in Conor's family. They come from Arklow. I'm not sure if it was because all the menfolk seemed to die young, (probably from hard physical labour or smoking/ drinking?) so they had to step up, or just that they were strong women in their own right. I wouldnt describe my own mother as a matriarch, but she had to raise a family single-handedly, just like many women had to, and still have to today. There must be a strength in that.
Definitely do look up the Tudor/Early Stuart paper, it is fascinating!
Interestingly enough, Arklow is my 'home-town'!!! Well, I grew up 'in the country' but Arklow was our local town, and yes, definitely a lot of strong matriarchs about the place. Might be because of the fishing industry (women running businesses on land while men at sea) and it did have a lot of industry (like ammunitions and pottery) were women were employed and earned a decent wage. Your mother sounds like a real power-house and I'm sure a source of strength to you when you think of her xx